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Surf’s thoughts on the homes debate

So, just some thoughts. I've heard the discussions, but I think there's some global consequences to think about.

It seems to me that the more/less homes discussion is a consequence of a different discussion...what's really going on here is people want to do more of a local-community-vanilla style build, whereas homes, tp, and excessive use of creative turn the game into a "go off on your own and build creatively" situation. The arguments I've heard for cutting homes down basically boil down to this...

...and that's ok, but I have a concern about that. We never had that as a rule, and to now be like "hey people way out with your own builds, now you can't bounce back to them easily because other people want to play like this" that sucks. Part of the unspoken promise of this server is if you do insane long-term builds, we'll do what we can do to protect them. Playing on a server for 2 months and then having it disappear sucks...we are a 2.5 year old server and that's an implicit promise in our model.

/home is just a way to bounce to a far away location without having to walk...in a way it's no different than /tpa or /tpahere...or /mv_tp or /spawn for that reason. I don't feel that cutting out /home would solve the problems/complaints, and at the same time it would dramatically change the game for people who are just doing their thing. Also, to cut homes out, to actually accomplish anything other than annoy people with a bunch of homes, we have to cut out other commands as well.

There's a compromise in here somewhere though. I understand the need for a more-vanilla, command-less experience. Lots of ideas have been bounced around...second server, with some hack to tie in the chats and stuff? That's 2x the maintenance, 2x the bandwidth, 2x the cost, it's easier to upgrade a vanilla server than a plugin-based server, member changes have to be made 2x...it just sucks. It's a crappy solution, and it'd be a hard fork in the community.

There's been an idea I've floated for a while...I think it's the best compromise, but it's a big ass technical hurdle. How about a vanilla world. While in this world...no commands will work other than /msg and such. You can't /spawn, /home, /tpa, /tpahere, etc. You can't /mv_tp in/out. The only way in or out would be a command block in main world spawn...that would enforce a /clearinventory before sending you, and the only way out without dying would be a command block in vanilla world spawn. There's some shortcomings here...there'd be no working nether/end portals (as is the case with any multiverse world). Also...we'd knock out any Admin commands in this world...just owners for maximum control of grief-fixing and such. (though I don't think we can do a by-world /deop...) I need to do some research, but at the minimum I would like to demo this idea...expect me to build a "vanilla world hub" somewhere in spawn soon to test the command block setup.

There was another idea I had recently and hadn't even talked to Mike about yet...but I haven't thought it all the way through yet. We make a new class of /Member, maybe called /Member_Vanilla, with the reduced permissions set...then members can request to be in one or the other. Basically, you could elect to be in a group of people with more restricted gameplay modes...which kind of locks you to the type of gameplay people are requesting. This then also doesn't bother people (like pwn) that build far and are just keeping to themselves.

Thoughs? Nothing is decided yet.

    23 Responses to “Surf’s thoughts on the homes debate”

  1. Omokisei Says:
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    I think this is a perfect solution! The homes system and vanilla fights just had I change somehow. If you did make a vanilla world, would there be pvp? Also I would like to know what you think on adding more homes too.

  2. Troom0 Says:
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    Ok, that doesnt quite set up the server for what me and pain were going for. We’ve already worked hard for our materials, built legit structures, created our personal towns and all. Now we want to link them using portals and minetracks, we arent saying we NEED people to get out of their builds and come play with us, but we were stating that teleport commands make this utopia unfeasable. The main point here is that you literally never just run into anyone walking around in the world, the only contact you would make with someone is when you agree to meet them with /tpa or at spawn or something… through teleports. The fact that less teleports would result in more people building things together is a side-effect (and a positive side-effect at that), not a desired outcome from the point we are arguing. People like pwn arent going to lose their huge cities like atlantis, and they arent going to lose easy access to them either. The whole idea of removing teleports (in my opinion) is just going to create more oppurtunities for projects and restore the feature of the game that teleporting has taken away (in which you actually have to work to get somewhere instead of teleporting back and forth between bases, which is pretty much the difference between creative mode and survival). If anything, a cheats world should be enabled with optional teleporting creative mode and any other commands that make the game easier to play, and the world which has been created legitimately by hard work should become the pure vanilla server.

  3. Troom0 Says:
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    So after a little more thought, you could copy the current world and make it the new vanilla world… and in the vanilla world we could take down all the creative buildings an erect new vanilla structures in their places at spawn. Then anyone in the vanilla world doesnt need to restart completely, but can still go off of what they had built initially.

  4. Omokisei Says:
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    I think surf’s plan works out perfectly for both sides. So stop trying to fuck it over. You don’t even know if pain agrees.

  5. Painkiller7 Says:
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    I think Surf’s idea is a very good compromise, but for the sake of competive…ness, i don’t think people should have, at the very least, more homes. Since you can be mining and like find diamonds, and lets say you forget your fortune pick and you just teleport back :/ well that just seems unfair. And pretty much anything you say about “oh my build is really far from spawn” can be achieved legitly by using nether portal links. So maybe if you stopped being so lazy! and actually put forth effort, you could build a straight shot track to the other portal in the nether to get there really fast (1/8 the distance)
    You could even put ice down and hatches to go even faster. My SSP for example, my stronghold is like 7-8 thousand blocks away, yet i can get there in less than a minute practically every time. If you don’t know how to link portals, every block in the nether = 8 blocks in the overworld. And if you place a portal in the nether at…lets say 1, Y, 1…then place one in the overworld at 8, Y, 8, you will always go back and forth between those portals. (The Y axis plays no role in nether portal links except if the portal is above bedrock)
    *and also the coords don’t actually have to be exactly divisible by 8, but since the portal is 2 blocks wide you can give/take a few blocks in the coords. like a portal at 5,Y,5 would link with one at 1,Y,1.

  6. Omokisei Says:
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    Ok let me stop you at the diamond thingy part. How would adding more homes affect that? Surf isn’t just going to get rid of teleporting commands and spawn commands.

  7. KingOfThePond Says:
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    Omo, that’s what they’re going for.
    First of all, before I start, I’d like to point out that I am EXTREMELY competitive, yet love to see REALLY BIG and LEGIT builds by others. There WILL be bias 🙂
    I really like surf’s idea of the vanilla member rank. I also agree with pain on the fact that giving others extra homes (in addition to the existing 3) while vanilla members would have none would feel a bit like being demoted rather than given the opportunity to be more legit.
    As for being lost while mining, having no teleports out is not a big deal with dynmap, which I hope my fellow aspiring vanilla members don’t want removed.
    In the PvP aspect, I think vanilla members should be able to pvp other vanilla members, even in main world, and vanilla members and normal could only hit each other in quest world in the set warzones. pvp isn’t a big deal on this server but… since I know Drew is working on his arena and there’s an arena in spawn, it would be no fun if it needed an admin to operate it.

  8. Omokisei Says:
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    Ok, first of all it isn’t just for me. There are tons of others who want more homes. But the thing is I want to start new projects but I can’t because of limiting homes. Also is towny getting installed? Everyone I think adding more homes and getting a vanilla class is fair to both sides. Plus it would eliminate any creative fights.

  9. surfrock66 Says:
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    So, maybe we can rethink the enforced /clearinventory. We will have to decide up front, because if we don’t do the enforced /clearinventory (and as an extension no hacks between ender chests, which was one issue I didn’t know how to solve) then there’s gonna be no support when the inevitable complaints come up about “NO FAIR YOU BROUGHT THOSE 20 STACKS OF DIAMOND BLOCKS FROM WHEN YOU MADE THEM IN CREATIVE IN MAIN WORLD!” If you can bring things in/out, then that’s the rule forever.

    However, for “vanilla world” while inside that world, all tp and home and spawn commands will be disabled, there will be no “popping out” and “popping in.” The goal is that the only way in is a command block, and the only way out is a command block or death. While in that map, the game will be mostly vanilla.

    Duplicating the map isn’t an option for practical reasons…we have a complete map portfolio at about 15GB and that would take it to 21GB, it’s a giant pain in the ass. A new map is much much better. If the goal is to be able to take resources from your existing gameplay and use them in a more vanilla environment, all we have to do is not-enforce the /clearinventory and allow enderchests. There can’t be policing of items though.

    Portals? Ugh. Portals are a nightmare. In all formats, there’s a multiverse-portals plugin and it’s all fuckery. I’d prefer not to use portals, they’re messy, hard to link, can be made out of any material, and always get abused.

    More homes…I dunno. It’s a super unpopular idea it seems, enough so that the pros don’t outweigh the cons. I do have another idea though (I’m full of them). Now that command blocks are re-enabled…what if we made like a warping station? Like a building in spawn with a bunch of little closets that you go into and it /warps you to spot a or b. The reason this might work is a lot of people use /home to get to a public spot (like the entrance to a town) making it more universal, then /home can be limited to personal builds, whereas 3 has got to be enough. Thoughts? If this is the idea we go with…I’m making it out of obsidian and fire and it’s called the floo network…

  10. Troom0 Says:
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    To add on to surfs warping idea (without going through the trouble of splitting the community between two worlds and differentiated gameplay) I could compromise to allow Omo and anyone else strongly linked to homes to be able to set up the warping station, WITH A FINITE NUMBER OF WARPS. Any warps set up will be the only warps there can ever be after it is complete, no new warps will be added. Once you warp there will be no way to get back (hence the idea of making nether portals and using nether travel will still be feasible) and from then out anyone who had a far out build could access it easily, but anything new created would have to be completely vanilla in forms of transportation. (if this goes through, i will not be adding a warp to my house but instead connecting it to aleks supertunnel, and alek and i would be more than happy to assist you in building a tunnel to your homes)

  11. Omokisei Says:
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    Why do we have to have finite warps troom?

  12. Omokisei Says:
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    And surf it’s just not popular with a few people. A lot want more homes.

  13. Troom0 Says:
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    whoever these people are, they can speak for themselves if they arent LAZY enough to get on the website.

  14. Omokisei Says:
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    Try the 10 other people that voted.

  15. Painkiller7 Says:
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    I’m with troom on that one, Omo you can’t be speaking all this for everyone that wants more homes. If they really want more homes they can come talk about it here too. For all you know they could have completely different opinions than you…but they just simply want more homes.

  16. taba357 Says:
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    I voted for more homes but to tell you the truth I like the ideas surf is giving and connecting the community more would be nice if possible. Though the only reason I chose more homes was because I didn’t have a way to reach all the places I’ve claimed and built in but then pains idea of nether portals sounds like it can work for me and given the chance to connect my places with tunnels or railways sounds fun actually so I’m all for surfs idea.

  17. Painkiller7 Says:
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    I would also like to throw another idea out there. Since i have my own server that uses similar plugins as this one does, i’ve seen an option in essentials config that can “delay” any teleporting command. like /spawn, /home, /tpa, etc. And if you move, take damage, or deal damage in the delay time, the teleport is denied. It would be configurable to any delay time, although anything past 10 seconds would probably be a little to much. This solves 1 problem of teleporting out of dire situations.

  18. Troom0 Says:
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    That was sorta just an extra thing to tack on to the advantages of having teleports. The real thing I think most of the people are interested in when they vote to removes homes is the connecting places with nether portals.

  19. Troom0 Says:
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    *disadvantages of having teleports*

  20. thaum aka Kat Says:
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    Hey ho~ hey ho fellow dwarves.

    I voted for more homes too, because I like to get involved with other people and build several things at the same time. We live on different time zones so if I wanted to build with someone american on the other side of the world at least I don’t have to run there. Surf your logic seems to be sound so I’m with you on this whatever you decide. I agree with Troom0 on that the spawn being a “no-build”-zone has probably contributed to this debate. I find it really alienating.

    The nethertrack seems to lag me out for some reason. So at least for me it hasn’t been because of laziness that I haven’t been using the main feature of the nether. I’m not sure is it just me or is it a common thing for rails. (this might have changed in 1.5)

  21. cncr04s Says:
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    OK Guys, This is my Solution. I see people talking about getting rid of homes because people are too far away. My solution to this is to limit the size of the map to the size of one continent. There would be a bedrock wall enclosing the area. Homes would stay the same. I’ve been browsing the map and I see people building miles away from the main continent, and that isn’t what I envisioned when we changed maps.

  22. Omokisei Says:
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    Like Kat said, the nether is laggy. Plus I’m not speaking for everyone. BUT look at the poll. Hmm? I just want more homes

  23. Zeeco Says:
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    Alright, I was so offended by this shit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DImzUtBmh1E

    Just want to point out that that’s not me!

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